Home > Faith > Evolution Part Deux: My response

Evolution Part Deux: My response

For those who read the evolution debate. Thank you for your input….

Of course, I always get the final word. A couple clarifying remarks.

1) Neil wrote, “It’s as though you earmarked this special topic, because it challenges your religion, as safe ground to be skeptical.”

2) Fatmir wrote, “There is of course some individualistic selfishness, but I think feelings of guilt and angst about those actions evolved to temper those individualistic desires.”  and, “There is also beauty in the chaos that you describe as nature. ”

Now all we need is a hookah, cigarettes (not for me, I prefer brisket) and a deck of cards.

Neil is right, I am with him a hundred percent about finding the best system of governance and rational model to harness this selfishness. I truly believe that best model is one based on the Austrian school of economics (give or take). Now, my bigger problem is that I see this vicious cycle of selfishness. Sure we have elements of teamwork ultimately out of self-interested goals but to take the econ-crisis model (thanks to Fatmir for a particularly insightful conversation): Home mortgagers lied on their income reports, bankers gave “predatory loans”, originators bundled these toxic assets etc.

Fine, we can argue the system is flawed, I agree it is. But I think its a rather incomplete solution. We can increase the scope of governance, but as Neil you should know this would only incentivize “rent-seeking”.  My ultimate issue is a lack of satisfaction at our human condition, not that fact that I think evolution scientifically challenges my faith.  I am not skeptical about the positive arguments for evolution as Longley noted. I am however disappointed at the end result. WE can’t have it both ways and discuss only the positive manifestations of our selfishness (i.e. self-interested teamwork) and say these show the benefits of evolution. We want to have our cake and eat it too, but then when the crappy side of selfishness creeps up again, we spit up the cake and start all over again. I agree with the arguments there partially; but it ultimately comes down whether we believe ourselves to be unchangeable monoliths of self-centeredness or whether we believe heart redemption is possible.

I argue for the latter and I see when we go against the grain of this natural order. We don’t behave like our lives are largely deterministic; whether its our own edification, our actions towards our children, our deeds towards loved ones.  Perhaps attributing these emotions of love and conscience to God is a quite a leap, but I find the alternative impossible to live for. I don’t find that irrational at all….

i mean i guess it comes down to then instituting models to maximize that selfishness for good use
but….
i would say inherently that selfishness will still ride high
that we don’t always behave in that vacuum example
governments “rent-seek”
banks “predatory lend”
homeowners “lie on their income statements”
etc.
i mean i guess the system is f’d up
but i think more than the system
its the people that need the change
we react to those things so viscerally
and what im saying ultimately is
we can’t just separate good “selfishness” from the bad
like its not a positive argumentation against evolution
like i dont think the facts are wrong
in fact i agree with u on probably most of em
its just that the facts present me a distasteful conclusion about the human condition
Bags: haha yup, people suck
I think I reach an even more distasteful conclusion if God does exist
why did he create us to be such douche bags
me: hrmm well
yea man
thats another hookah discussion
but at least
Bags: haha for sure
me: we can have some of them
while i blog
or if neil blogs
Bags: you coming down to DC any time soon?
me: or if u do
next week son
saturday
ill be there
lets play football
Bags: oh sick
definitely
me: ill send out an email
Bags: I was going to stay away from religion if I keep writing this blog
me: yea man
i know what you mean
was mine a little too in your face?
im trying to make mine accessible
Bags: oh no, it was really good
me: but yea
write some more stuff
i linked u up
so my 2 readers
Bags: I just feel like if I wrote about it, it would try to be persuasive
me: might occasionally peer in
Bags: and I don’t have any interest in making people atheist
haha
religion is almost always a positive thing in people’s lives
I respect that
oh sweet
me: There is of course some individualistic selfishness, but I think feelings of guilt and angst about those actions evolved to temper those individualistic desires.
wtf
sorry
hold up a sec
Bags: hahaha
Bags: I hate when that happens
me: athiest
likes G though
big G
Sent at 11:50 AM on Friday
Bags: I definitely buy that
however, I think it only adds to the argument
it is much easier to get people organized when they all believe in the same thing
me: hrmm
i c what u mean
Bags: and most “great” societies had religion
me: like unity in purpose is much more edifying longterm
Bags: yeah
but then again, our proclivity for believing in a god could both be used as an argument for god and for evolution
it is very interesting either way though
me: yea no definitely
i think there is an element of faith either way
for one it disappoints me
because the new “evolution” books
Sent at 11:58 AM on Friday
me: tries to serve the idea that God does not exist
Bags: oh really?
me: like we need to protect evolution by attacking God
i don’t think they are mutually exclusive as I laid out
Bags: I definitely agree
extremism breeds extremism
me: i mean i don’t think its “extreme”
Bags: that’s the problem with our shitty political system
me: its their view they logically came up with
Bags: sort of
me: i just don’t think it serves them well to attack the tenets of faith
because it unravels logically
Bags: but the reason it’s probably negative towards religion is because some religious people reject science
yeah, there’s no way to even really the tie the two in together
unless you take the story of adam and eve literally
me: yea
i mean
the thing is
i don’t find it unjustified
well i do
i find it a natural reaction
its just that they are eventually playing the same games
palin
and the other people play
Bags: yeah
on another note, when are you rolling to korea?
me: prlly like 4 weeks?
from now
Bags: sweeet
Bags is busy. You may be interrupting.
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